New to Allsky and overwhelmed by hardware options

[MueJosh]

Hey,
I'm new to allsky and raspberry camera stuff (I'm familiar with raspberry tho and own one Pi4 4gb and three 02W)

I am a hobby photographer and know some stuff about lenses and cameras, though nothing with purpose build stuff like zwo.
I want to "use" the allsky cam to monitor movement in the sky e.g. faint Aurora Borealis, Meteors and some satellites. (And of course the stars...)

My questions have already been answered but after searching for literally hours I still can't find "my" setup to build/ and buy.

Some infos that may be relevant:
Not bought but I want to use the Pi 5 8gb because I also wan to run some other stuff on it. (BirdNET-Pi and in the future some SDR stuff)
I live in the southern part of Germany where temperatures of 38°C in the summertime are quite common- in winter it's still pretty warm (-7°C was the lowest in the last few years)
I'm living in the middle of a valley with some trees around, 180° for for the lens is overkill but I wouldn't mind to see some trees and the hills in the pictures.
The whole module (pi, camera, other sensors) will be mounted on the roof, it's not that accessible after it's set up...
I don't really care if I get a round (square) or rectangular picture with cut corners.

I want to go for the RP HQ cam because it's cheap (compared to what I'm used to- e.g. Fullframe...) and easy to come by, though I don't need the MP and heard it overheats quite easily.

1. Is there something in between the HQ cam and the expensive purpose-build cams like the ZWO ASI 178MC? I don't want to pay more then 200€, 150€ is already painful;) or is the jump from 150 to 400€ THAT noticeable?

2. Is active cooling needed for the Pi HQ cam? (Considering the high temperatures in summer)

3. is there an "easy" way to run allsky on another system and have just the camera (inside a case obviously) connected to a cheaper RPi 02W just for data transmission?

And now for the Most asked question (I think...) - The Lens

4. I prefer good glass above expensive cameras! Though price to performance is still a thing... I have looked at several lenses:
   Cheap:
   Arducam 120° 3,2mm new ~35€
   Cinese stuff 1,56 mm f/2.0 new ~6 - 20€
   Arecont f2.0 1.55mm new -NA
   Moderate:
   Pretty much all the AICO lenses
   Thought I only found them on Alibaba/express..
   Expensive for the purpose:
   Fujinon DF1.4HB-L1 used ~200-400€
   Fujinon FE185C086HA-1 used ~180-250€
   Fujinon CF2.7HA-L1 used ~100-250€
   The last one seems good for the price of 90€ from eBay.

Im getting crazy with all the possibilities though I love to research stuff... Help please 🤪

Thanks!
Let me know if some information is missing or needed

[EricClaeys]

@MueJosh, Welcome to Allsky!
I always recommend the RPi HQ camera - it has about as high a resolution as you'll get from the lenses and domes we use (anything with higher resolution is likely wasted), it's a lot cheaper than ZWO cameras, and the quality is good. I hadn't heard it gets hot. Do you have the URL where you saw that? ZWO cameras can get hot.

I assume when you said "MP" in the sentence below your picture you meant "HQ" ?

1. I'm not aware of any cameras in between the HQ and ZWO. Do NOT get an ASI120 - lots of people have problems. You might be able to find a ZWO on sale, but it will likely still be more expensive than the HQ and how lower resolution and/or chip size. I suggest asking on the Allsky Facebook group - a lot more people are there with a lot of different cameras.

2. Not sure if the camera needs cooling but your Pi most likely will in your climate. Many people put a fan in the case. I haven't heard of anyone with a Pi 5 in a case, although I plan to replace my Pi 4 with a Pi 5 next time I visit my observatory.

3. "spliting" Allsky between two machines is on our to-do list, but it probably won't be this year. Except for timelapse, keogram, and startrails, Allsky doesn't use a lot of CPU. If you map your Pi's ~/allsky directory to a network drive on another machine, that other machine could probably run the timelapse (including mini-timelapse), keograms, and startrails, and even upload all images. You would then disable those things on the Pi.

4. When you find a good quality lens, let me and the whole Allsky community know!! I have a couple Arecont f2.0 1.55 mm lenses from Allsky Optics (owner of the Allsky Facebook page) and they are ok. I bought an AICO ACTCS25IR8MPF 2.55mm lens but have never gotten it to focus. With shipping from China it was about the same cost as the Arecont lens. This is another good question for the Allsky Facebook group. I haven't seen anyone do a comparison of lenses using the same Pi, same time, etc. Given that almost everyone has a cheap plastic dome I'm not sure how much a difference a lens will even make.

[MueJosh]

I always recommend the RPi HQ camera - it has about as high a resolution as you'll get from the lenses and domes we use (anything with higher resolution is likely wasted), it's a lot cheaper than ZWO cameras, and the quality is good. I hadn't heard it gets hot. Do you have the URL where you saw that? ZWO cameras can get hot.

Thanks for your kind answer!
I don't want a higher resolution camera unless the sensor gets bigger - after a sleepless night and your answer I'll get the raspberry HQ cam. Thanks!
Maybe in the future when I need an auto-guider I consider the ZWO cams.
I mixed something up- the overheating discussion was from an "uncooled" ZWO.

I assume when you said "MP" in the sentence below your picture you meant "HQ" ?

Nope, I meant Megapixels. Considering the small pixel size of the hq camera in relation to the sensor size. (What I meant is that I Prefer a high gain/iso sensor instead of high MP)

1. I'm not aware of any cameras in between the HQ and ZWO. Do NOT get an ASI120 - lots of people have problems. You might be able to find a ZWO on sale, but it will likely still be more expensive than the HQ and how lower resolution and/or chip size. I suggest asking on the Allsky Facebook group - a lot more people are there with a lot of different cameras.

I have read that (asi120) ... Okay- I stay at the HQ camera though as I already stated a higher gain with less noise is preferred. But the zwo cameras don't seem that great for this purpose (allsky and only allsky- if I would have a guider Id probably say something different)
I joined the FB group and hate it (NOT THE GROUP! - Facebook isn't that great to search for specific stuff inside of groups..)- that's why I'm here :)

2. Not sure if the camera needs cooling but your Pi most likely will in your climate. Many people put a fan in the case. I haven't heard of anyone with a Pi 5 in a case, although I plan to replace my Pi 4 with a Pi 5 next time I visit my observatory.

Okay, I'll do it with a double fan then- one for the pi and one to circulate the air inside the whole case.

3. "spliting" Allsky between two machines is on our to-do list, but it probably won't be this year. Except for timelapse, keogram, and startrails, Allsky doesn't use a lot of CPU. If you map your Pi's ~/allsky directory to a network drive on another machine, that other machine could probably run the timelapse (including mini-timelapse), keograms, and startrails, and even upload all images. You would then disable those things on the Pi.

Okay, then I'll build it as an all in one solution and maybe split it up when the software is ready for it.
Though I'll try it that way when all the hardware arrived.

4. When you find a good quality lens, let me and the whole Allsky community know!! I have a couple Arecont f2.0 1.55 mm lenses from Allsky Optics (owner of the Allsky Facebook page) and they are ok. I bought an AICO ACTCS25IR8MPF 2.55mm lens but have never gotten it to focus. With shipping from China it was about the same cost as the Arecont lens. This is another good question for the Allsky Facebook group. I haven't seen anyone do a comparison of lenses using the same Pi, same time, etc. Given that almost everyone has a cheap plastic dome I'm not sure how much a difference a lens will even make.

Mhmm okay, then I'll buy some lenses and test them...

Considering the dome, it probably doesn't make a huge difference. BUT if there is a "perfect" lens (for the hq cam), it's possible to test it further with different domes, angle and distance to get a better view and quality.

For some basic testing it's not needed to have everything on the same camera/Raspi and for the sky- I prefer test charts for testing.
(for the photographers out there- YES, I know, test charts don't say much in real life but they can help to compare different lenses and flaws)

[EricClaeys]

@MueJosh,

I mixed something up- the overheating discussion was from an "uncooled" ZWO.

Allsky supports cooled cameras but I don't think many people have them. They are a lot more expensive and need more power.

Okay, I'll do it with a double fan then- one for the pi and one to circulate the air inside the whole case.

Circulating air in the case likely won't work well. You really want to bring in cooler outside air, and ideally, pump it over the Pi, into the dome, and then outside.

it's possible to test it further with different domes, angle and distance to get a better view and quality.

Someone on Facebook tested their lens at various heights within the done. Higher up, but not too high, was best. Since Facebook search isn't helpful I can't find the article anymore. Any testing you do would be great. Is a "test chart" the thing with lots of lines getting closer together, to test the resolution? It would be really interesting to test that with and without a dome.

[MueJosh]

@EricClaeys

Circulating air in the case likely won't work well. You really want to bring in cooler outside air, and ideally, pump it over the Pi, into the dome, and then outside.

Okay, something like a tube that's split in half with a border in between?

Someone on Facebook tested their lens at various heights within the done. Higher up, but not too high, was best. Since Facebook search isn't helpful I can't find the article anymore. Any testing you do would be great. Is a "test chart" the thing with lots of lines getting closer together, to test the resolution? It would be really interesting to test that with and without a dome.

If you find it or someone else- can you please link it here?

There are different methods and ways to get accurate results. And different tests for sensors, lenses, distortions (coma, cromatic abberation, ...)
E.g:
Imatest different methods

Some great stuff for fisheye lenses
mftmapper

mftmapper explained

One example thats often used for some basic testing and combines different test methods
enjoyyourcamera Test Chart - Shop

[morrowwm]

Given that almost everyone has a cheap plastic dome
I'm working on a new case that uses half of a small light bulb as the dome, and fits on 2" piping for e.g. built-in vacuum cleaner:

The PI HQ camera is connected to a Pi via a long video cable, so th Pi could be out of the weather and have better cooling.

Some other allsky projects are ahead of this, so it's still on my desk.

Slicing light bulbs in half is actually easy, using a heated nichrome wire.

cutting_bulb.mp4

[MueJosh]

@morrowwm

I'm working on a new case that uses half of a small light bulb as the dome, and fits on 2" piping for e.g. built-in vacuum cleaner:

Thats such a great Idea!
I'll definitely try this.

The PI HQ camera is connected to a Pi via a long video cable, so th Pi could be out of the weather and have better cooling.

Are you using a dew heater? I would be worried about moisture
But having the camera and pi in separate cases is perfect (considering the heat in summer)

The shape makes it pretty stable but I would be worried about hail..

Stuff like this exist, though I have no experience with it.

aliexpress link for example

[morrowwm]

This hasn't got out of the factory yet. I share your concern about its strength. It's quite fragile until glued onto the base. We almost never get hail. But have inquisitive woodpeckers! Also, the long video cable might act as an antenna, especially for lightning.

I haven't had any issues with dew yet.

I looked for something like the glass dome you reference, with no luck. That one looks good, thanks.

@EricClaeys has suggested converting video to ethernet, and having the computer a long distance away. This'd also give the lightning something cheaper to destroy, perhaps.

If and when the split of allsky to allow video capture on one machine and processing on the other happens, it'll get easier to build hardware like this. Just put a Pi Zero W2 in with the camera, and do all the processing on a server elsewhere.

[MueJosh]

We almost never get hail. But have inquisitive woodpeckers! Also, the long video cable might act as an antenna, especially for lightning.

Oh, yeah they can cause some heavy damage 🫢
I wouldn't be too worried about lightning but you could mount a lightning rod next to it..

I looked for something like the glass dome you reference, with no luck. That one looks good, thanks.

I also just ordered it.

@EricClaeys has suggested converting video to ethernet, and having the computer a long distance away. This'd also give the lightning something cheaper to destroy, perhaps.

I think it really doesn't matter, if there is lightning and it's hitting some part of the system- it's dead anyway.
A Poe switch doesn't stop a "few" kV of Power neither does a CSI-Port (I go for PoE for my Pi, but I try to forget lightning;)

If and when the split of allsky to allow video capture on one machine and processing on the other happens, it'll get easier to build hardware like this. Just put a Pi Zero W2 in with the camera, and do all the processing on a server elsewhere.

I'll definitely do it this way as sonn as it's possible, much easier for so much thinking (heat, size, costs,...)

I just ordered all the parts and a bunch of lenses (mostly from Asia) to test, as soon as it's working I test some more lenses that are available in Germany.

[loykastj]

@EricClaeys

Circulating air in the case likely won't work well. You really want to bring in cooler outside air, and ideally, pump it over the Pi, into the dome, and then outside.

Okay, something like a tube that's split in half with a border in between?

Someone on Facebook tested their lens at various heights within the done. Higher up, but not too high, was best. Since Facebook search isn't helpful I can't find the article anymore. Any testing you do would be great. Is a "test chart" the thing with lots of lines getting closer together, to test the resolution? It would be really interesting to test that with and without a dome.

If you find it or someone else- can you please link it here?

There are different methods and ways to get accurate results. And different tests for sensors, lenses, distortions (coma, cromatic abberation, ...)
E.g:
Imatest different methods

Some great stuff for fisheye lenses
mftmapper

mftmapper explained

One example thats often used for some basic testing and combines different test methods
enjoyyourcamera Test Chart - Shop

I'm almost done with a design of this concept. I based it off the 2013 Mac Pro design.
It's going to use the ECO-D-100B anti reflective BK7 dome.

[MueJosh]

I'm almost done with a design of this concept. I based it off the 2013 Mac Pro design.
It's going to use the ECO-D-100B anti reflective BK7 dome.

@loykastj
Finally a useful function for the trashcan PC 😀
That looks great!
Is it repurposed or are you building a case that looks similar to the Mac Pro?

What's the pricing for such a dome?

@EricClaeys
I've not forgotten the testing of lenses and stuff! Stressful times right now, lots of education exams...
I've received al lot of different lenses from CN and the Fujinon (2.7mm f1.8 I think) , the latter is on the HQ cam for Allsky testing. (I'm still in the city with lots of💡)
The pi runs great with Poe and NVMe SSD

I can put a Pipe through my roof from my attic, that should eliminate some problems (heating in winter and maintaining the hardware.

[EricClaeys]

@MueJosh, I look forward to your lens test results and would like to put them in our documentation with your approval. I now have 3 Pi 5 with NVMe. Only 1 PoE - I want to see what the RPi PoE HAT is like if they ever release it.

[EricClaeys]

@loykastj, have you considered having air circulate through the dome to help melt ice on the outside and remove dew on the inside?
This is what I'm using. Air enters the bottom where it says "Air intake", goes up through the fan, past the Pi and camera, into holes on one side of the dome, and out the other side. It then exits where it says "Screening ...".
I want to make something smaller - the current one is 4" wide where it says "Ethernet / PoE", then goes to 6" in the main body, then has an 8" cap. I'd like something with a 4" body and 6" cap.

[astrotater]

Yeah there will be openings for air to flow into the dome.
It will have a 3 watt 12v dew heater though.
With constant air flow within the case, and the heat of the pi inside the case, and the dew heater turned on as necessary, I'm hopeful humidity will never be a problem inside the case and the dew heater will prevent both dew and ice.

[ranous]

When I started on my all-sky cam project, my first prototype was completely sealed. It was concerning to me how hot the CPU temp was reported during the day, and this was in winter. I feared during the summer it would be boiling in there. I built a variation with some static venting in the bottom, but it only helped a bit, so I went all in on active ventilation. I found a design somewhere online (I forget where so I can’t give credit) which took the approach of a dedicated tunnel a fan blew through up around the camera into the dome. I decided to take that approach for my current design.

I oriented the Pi vertically into an internal “tunnel”, where a 40mm fan (powered from the Pi) blows over it, around the camera, into the dome. The air can then circulate down along the sides of the enclosure and out a vent in the bottom. I originally used a ZWO cam I had for planetary work which included a wide angle lens, but it wasn't wide enough for my purposes, so instead of trying to adapt another lens for it, I went with the Pi's HQ camera. I tried several different M12 lenses and found this one's coverage worked the best for me. I used the M12 adapter from an other Arducam lens I bought.

I find this setup keeps the reported CPU temp around 10 degrees above ambient. I didn't want to have to mess with wiring up some resistors to heat the dome to keep it dew free. Concentrating the external air from the fan directly over the Pi and piping the Pi's heat directly into the dome has the added advantage of heating the dome, and I’ve had zero problems with dew. I can't say if it would be enough to keep frost from forming on the dome in a winter environment as it rarely dips below freezing where I am in California.

I used this project as an excuse to buy a 3D printer, and I learned Fusion 360 to design it. I’ve seen it said that those cheap plastic domes don’t last forever, so one of my design goals was to have the cam assembled by screwing together the components as I didn’t want to have to glue stuff permanently into place. The whole unit can be assembled/disassembled quite quickly. I sourced an o-ring that perfectly fits between the dome and the dome screwed on lid, and haven’t had any water intrusion after a rainy season here. The Pi has a PoE hat and is powered via a single ethernet cable connected to a PoE switch in my backyard observatory.

I also designed an add on “sensor pod” which is wired into the cam which has a rain, cloud, and external temp/pressure/humidity sensor, but that’s a whole other project. Here's the completed cam with it's external pod.

[EricClaeys]

@ranous, Alex, this looks a lot more professional than mine. I will be curious to see if you have any water leaks. It doesn't look like you will.

[morrowwm]

The Pi has a PoE hat and is powered via a single ethernet cable...

Which hat?

I had parts for a DIY POE injector, but it seems Pi OS or ethernet hardware don't like that.

[EricClaeys]

@morrowwm, who is this question for?

[morrowwm]

@EricClaeys I was asking @ranous (Alex) mostly, since he has a POE hat working.

But I'd love to hear anyone else with a good story.

[ranous]

I went with this one of the WaveShare PoE hats. This one was attractive to me since it bundles a fan and also has a 12v header which I use to drive the 40mm enclosure fan. I could have gone with a 5v fan, but I figured why not get one with more airflow. They now have a version for the Pi 5.

[morrowwm]

Ah, looks good. My plan for my next model is to have the fan at the bottom of the enclosure, blowing air up across the front side of the Pi board, hitting the glass dome at the top, and then exiting out some venting in the sides.

So I'm thinking a simple POE hat without attached fan. My current model has a small daughter board made on prototyping breadboard, which has I2C to a temperature/humidity sensor, an 12v to 5v buck converter, and fan driver MOSFET.

I was planning to turn that prototype into a real circuit board. But it looks like this Waveshare hat will do everything, plus a better job of POE.

Thanks for the clue!

[ranous]

Thanks Eric. I used this project to learn the 3d design software, so I spent a fair amount of time on it. It's survived our rainy season w/out any leaks. Even if water got past the o-ring, it would have to work it's way under the dome flange and back up and over the inner lip. Even then, there's no electronics outside of the central tunnel, and there's a vent in the bottom, so it should still be ok.

Can't say the same for the external sensor pod. I had some leaking from where the Hydreon rain detector attached. I wanted to use it to make an ASCOM safety monitor, but I found it wasn't terribly sensitive. I'm now thinking using a machine learning model to recognized rain drops in the all-sky images may be the way to go instead. It's on my todo list to investigate.