Render of abandoned and razed railways

[ppete2]

Hi, I think right now the rendering of abandoned and razed railways is not working. At least I'm not seeing them like on https://openrailwaymap.org/
It this a bug or intentional?

[hiddewie]

Yes, this is by design, since #246 and #336

Non existing infrastructure can be integrated in OpenHistoricalMap

[MatisseBE]

Sadly, I'm also missing this information on the map. The OHM implementation doesn't allow us to see all historical lines at once either, (only those of the selected time) right?

[hiddewie]

The OHM implementation doesn't allow us to see all historical lines at once either, (only those of the selected time) right?

Yes, that is true. We can change this issue to be able to view everything (present and historical during all times) at once on the map.

Can you give some specific examples of the use cases you have to view both present and historical railways at the same time?

[MatisseBE]

I admit these aren't the examples you were looking for but, here we are...
My main argument would be that the existing infrastructure/network can be explained by the old network. It's a very interesting perspective. Just having the option to display them would be wonderful. Perhaps, it may even help shine some light on these corridors again...

Someone will have a good use case for this, I'm just geeking out. 🤓

[EHCG04]

My use case would be: the line is closed down for some reason and my train is stuck.
I then open ORM, look at all the once-existing railway line and therefore swear profusely at all the political decisions to close these lines as we could have been rerouted via them. :p

[erinacio]

My case is that historical data is missing in Japan. Switching to 2024 and the entire nation-wide railway network disappears.

Also, it's interesting to see how abandoned lines once integrated into the larger network and where did they go. Especially with OSM data we can see how once-existing railway shapes streets.

[erinacio]

Also, I found that some abandoned lines still display on the map (with date set to present). Like part of Sassho Line (Shin-Totsukawa -- Hokkaido-Irodaigaku, ~2020) and part of Nemuro Main Line (Furano -- Shintoku, ~2024), both in Japan. For older lines that were closed over 10 years ago, the railway doesn't display but their stations remain on the map (e.g. Tempoku Line, ~1989). Don't know if that's expected.

[EHCG04]

As this issue has popped up again, I just want to add something:

Should it even be in this projects' scope what to and what not to render? The data exists in the OSM – some might not like it, but it’s there, we have to deal with it. Any discussion as to its "right to be" must be taken up with the OSM maintainers / the OSM forum, up the food chain.

Therefore it is still my opinion that this project should accept the status quo and purely operate on the data available – all data available – and show the abandoned as well as razed railways.

[hiddewie]

To be concrete, with this issue we can solve the displaying of both OpenStreetMap railway data and OpenHistoricalMap data at once on the map. Currently you have to choose, but apart from styling there is no reason we cannot display both at the same time on the map.

However, given the huge and ever-ongoing discussion about abandoned / razed railways (for example https://community.openstreetmap.org/t/loschung-von-alten-bahnlinien/129177), I want to make clear that I don't plan to render the abandoned / razed railways from OpenStreetMap on the map. The main reason is that there are too many abandoned / razed railways tagged in OpenStreetMap which are not present at all in reality, but only in history. Also see Wiki, verifiability. Given that OpenHistoricalMap is a good place to put that data, and OpenStreetMap has the "verifiable on the ground" principle, I think OpenHistoricalMap is a better place to put historical data.

Once OpenStreetMap contains mostly abandoned railways which are visible on the ground as described on the wiki ("A tag to map former railways, where the rails have been removed but the route is still visible with ties/sleepers, signals or other railroad right of way signs or infrastructure."), I am happy to add back to the map for abandoned railways, just like we have for disused railways.

My opinion may change in the future.

The data exists in the OSM – some might not like it, but it’s there, we have to deal with it.

Well I humbly disagree: as an OpenStreetMap data consumer we can choose which data is displayed on the map and which data is not.

In particular, as a data consumer we can influence which data is tagged into OpenStreetMap. A concrete example: preserved railways. Until June 2024, OSM Carto displayed only railway=preserved, and did not take railway:preserved=yes into account. That was changed in openstreetmap-carto/openstreetmap-carto#4965 halfway 2024 after many contributors started using railway:preserved=yes. But because the railway=preserved disappeared from the map, suddenly the conversion to railway:preserved=yes became a lot quicker.

(big decrease in railway=preserved tagging halfway 2024, caused by a data consumer)

[hiddewie]

I am starting some work in #600. But it depends on a feature of Maplibre GL JS that does not work as intended yet, so we have to wait for a fix.