Adventure map, maximum spell points after heroes' meeting with artifact exchange concerning the hero's knowledge

[LeHerosInconnu]

Preliminary checks

• I've checked that there aren't other open issues on the same topic.
• I've checked that this issue is reproducible on the latest snapshot build.

Platform

Windows

Describe the bug

During a meeting, when two heroes exchange artifacts that modify the maximum spell point total linked to the hero's knowledge, the maximum spell point total of the hero with a number greater than the new maximum total should be adjusted.
This is the case in the original game.

In the example, Ariel has 150 spell points corresponding to the maximum she can have with her knowledge of 15.
The Ultimate Book of Knowledge artifact gives her 12 of these 15 knowledge points.
When the Ultimate Book of Knowledge artifact is transferred to the hero Arie, Ariel's knowledge is reduced to 3 knowledge points.

At the end of the meeting, Ariel's spell points should therefore be reduced to 30 spell points, rather than remaining at 150 spell points.
But beware, this change in the number of spell points should only take effect just after the meeting window closes, so that the player can move artifacts from one hero to another several times if he changes his mind without losing the hero's spell points (there's a bug in the original game regarding this).
However, the hero spell points indicator bar (in the hero list) should be updated before returning to the adventure map screen after the meeting.

In the example, if Ariel goes to the Artesian Spring before the meeting, her spell points will increase to 300 spell points.
If during the meeting Ariel gives the Ultimate Book of Knowledge artifact to Arie, she will have 30 spell points after the meeting (the maximum she can have) and not 60 spell points.
If Ariel wants 60 spell points, she should visit the Artesian spring after giving the Ultimate Book of Knowledge artifact to Arie during the meeting.

In fheroes2:

2023-08-06.17-51-26.mp4

Save file

Here is the save file:
Max spell poin after meeting_.zip

Additional info

No response

[oleg-derevenetz]

To be honest, I don't find this mechanics sane. As far as I understand, this has been fixed in HoMM3 and subsequent games of the series:

HoMM3.mp4

The whole idea is that the already existing number of spell points is not changed when hero's Knowledge is changed. In this video Sorsha got 5 Knowledge due to the Crown of the Supreme Magi artifact (+4 Knowledge) and got 100SP due to Mana Vortex, and after he transferred this Crown to another hero, he still has 100SP despite having just 1 Knowledge.

But beware, this change in the number of spell points should only take effect just after the meeting window closes, so that the player can move artifacts from one hero to another several times if he changes his mind without losing the hero's spell points (there's a bug in the original game regarding this).

I'd say that this whole mechanics is a bug, which has been fixed in subsequent versions.

[kitovyj]

Yes, it's hard to tell what is better. On one hand the preservation of mana allows exploiting artifact exchange to recharge multiple heroes manas above their "intrinsic" knowledge level. On the other hand, resetting doubled mana to 'normal' amount just because a hero lost only 1 point of knowledge due to artifact exchange seems strange and maybe suprising the the player. I would vote for leaving it as it is.

[oleg-derevenetz]

On one hand the preservation of mana allows exploiting artifact exchange to recharge multiple heroes manas above their "intrinsic" knowledge level.

This is not so easy to exploit because you need to have both an artifact, a courier hero (or even a whole chain of heroes) and also some mana replenishment object (such as Well) near each hero to recharge. Otherwise, such a recharge will take a lot of game time.

[kitovyj]

On one hand the preservation of mana allows exploiting artifact exchange to recharge multiple heroes manas above their "intrinsic" knowledge level.

This is not so easy to exploit because you need to have both an artifact, a courier hero (or even a whole chain of heroes) and also some mana replenishment object (such as Well) near each hero to recharge. Otherwise, such a recharge will take a lot of game time.

Yes, I don't remember I ever used such a trick, game time is too precious.

[kitovyj]

On one hand the preservation of mana allows exploiting artifact exchange to recharge multiple heroes manas above their "intrinsic" knowledge level.

This is not so easy to exploit because you need to have both an artifact, a courier hero (or even a whole chain of heroes) and also some mana replenishment object (such as Well) near each hero to recharge. Otherwise, such a recharge will take a lot of game time.

An interesting solution could be to use the formula "if mana > current_knowledge*10 then mana = floor(mana * current_knowledge / old_knowledge)" . It would preserve the flavour of the original game, prevent the boring exploit and allow to avoid strange "spring-boosted mana reset" after artifact exchanges.

[oleg-derevenetz]

An interesting solution could be to use the formula "if mana > current_knowledge*10 then mana = floor(mana * current_knowledge / old_knowledge)" . It would preserve the flavour of the original game, prevent the boring exploit and allow to avoid strange "spring-boosted mana reset" after artifact exchanges.

Any behavior that will differ both from OG behavior and from the behavior of subsequent games of HoMM series (the "fixed" one, I believe) looks doubtful IMHO. I'd just leave the current behavior (the same as in subsequent HoMM games) as is.

[ihhub]

Let's keep it the logic the same as in the original game which is the current behavior.

[oleg-derevenetz]

Hi @ihhub

Let's keep it the logic the same as in the original game which is the current behavior.

The problem is that the original game has a different logic :)

In the example, Ariel has 150 spell points corresponding to the maximum she can have with her knowledge of 15.
The Ultimate Book of Knowledge artifact gives her 12 of these 15 knowledge points.
When the Ultimate Book of Knowledge artifact is transferred to the hero Arie, Ariel's knowledge is reduced to 3 knowledge points.

At the end of the meeting, Ariel's spell points should therefore be reduced to 30 spell points, rather than remaining at 150 spell points.
But beware, this change in the number of spell points should only take effect just after the meeting window closes, so that the player can move artifacts from one hero to another several times if he changes his mind without losing the hero's spell points (there's a bug in the original game regarding this).

@LeHerosInconnu just believes that the bug is only that the SP changes are applied immediately after moving the artifact, while I believe that the bug is is that these changes are taking place at all.

[LeHerosInconnu]

Hello everyone,

The problem is that by keeping the extra spell points above the maximum possible level, it becomes easy to abuse the functioning.
The hero fills up his spell points with lots of Knowledge artifacts and then exchanges them for Attack, Defense and/or Spell Power artifacts.
The hero is then much stronger in attack defense and/or spell power and with lots of spell points without worrying about Knowledge artifacts.
This becomes a "trick" advantage, even if it's only for two or three consecutive combats, that can easily be reproduced by the player.

In the original game, if during a meeting between heroes, a Knowledge artifact is moved in the same inventory (for example, the player rearranges the position of artifacts in the inventory of one of his heroes for greater clarity or whatever), the extra spell points above the maximum possible level are removed.
I consider this a bug.

Edit.

It should also be noted that in Heroes 3, artifact types occupy very specific slots, and it is not possible to replace a Knowledge artifact with an Attack artifact, for example.

[oleg-derevenetz]

The problem is that by keeping the extra spell points above the maximum possible level, it becomes easy to abuse the functioning.
The hero fills up his spell points with lots of Knowledge artifacts and then exchanges them for Attack, Defense and/or Spell Power artifacts.

It's not so easy, because you should have not just the artifacts, but also the mana sources, like Well, somewhere nearby, so you cannot just bring some set of artifacts anywhere you like and get all the benefits. Also in HoMM2 this mechanics is obviously bugged, and in later HoMMs it is completely absent, there is no way to decrease already existing MP by removing artifacts in them.

[LeHerosInconnu]

Hello @oleg-derevenetz,

The problem is that by keeping the extra spell points above the maximum possible level, it becomes easy to abuse the functioning.
The hero fills up his spell points with lots of Knowledge artifacts and then exchanges them for Attack, Defense and/or Spell Power artifacts.

It's not so easy, because you should have not just the artifacts, but also the mana sources, like Well, somewhere nearby, so you cannot just bring some set of artifacts anywhere you like and get all the benefits. Also in HoMM2 this mechanics is obviously bugged, and in later HoMMs it is completely absent, there is no way to decrease already existing MP by removing artifacts in them.

You replied before my edit in the previous post. :)
So:
"It should also be noted that in Heroes 3, artifact types occupy very specific slots, and it is not possible to replace a Knowledge artifact with an Attack artifact, for example."
It's a different system.

[oleg-derevenetz]

It should also be noted that in Heroes 3, artifact types occupy very specific slots, and it is not possible to replace a Knowledge artifact with an Attack artifact, for example.

This is not quite the case. For example, you can put the Crown of Supreme Magi on first, get the additional mana, and then replace it by the Spellbinder's Hat and get all level 5 spells for this additional mana.

[LeHerosInconnu]

@oleg-derevenetz.

It should also be noted that in Heroes 3, artifact types occupy very specific slots, and it is not possible to replace a Knowledge artifact with an Attack artifact, for example.

This is not quite the case. For example, you can put the Crown of Supreme Magi on first, get the additional mana, and then replace it by the Spellbinder's Hat and get all level 5 spells for this additional mana.

This is a "trick" advantage of the Heroes 3 system, that can therefore also be manipulated. :)
The Heroes 2 system is better in this case.

Anyways, in Heroes 3 a Knowledge artifact cannot be replaced by an Attack artifact.

In Heroes 2, with the "universal slots" in the hero's inventory, the removal of the extra spell points above the maximum possible level acts as a safeguard.

[oleg-derevenetz]

Anyways, in Heroes 3 a Knowledge artifact cannot be replaced by an Attack artifact.

In fact, not everything works so straightforwardly there. For example, you can put on the Sword of Judgement first (all +5), get additional mana (even double it in the Mana Vortex) and then replace this sword by Titan's Gladius (attack +12). The same is with torso - Armor of Wonder vs Dragon Scale Armor, etc.